If you don’t, then you just justified the Rape of Nanking, or at least provided the “ethical” basis for someone else (in power) to justify and rationalize it. If the author means atheists never hope that there is such justice, that’s false. But this is false. But DA was wrong to say that it is “completely arbitrary”, unless he meant, “at rock bottom” and was just repeating the point I just made. The Problem of Good — The Options for a Moral Source If a person omits a transcendent source of objective moral values, then there are three options left for a starting place of the objective moral law: 1. A variety of arguments have been offered in response to the problem of evil, and some of them have been used in both theodicies and defenses. Peace. Howard Kainz. Nothing shows that if God doesn’t exist, atheists can’t take the word “evil” and define it consistently. What seems to be happening is that (typically) kind people want the mean people to be kind, so they try to trick the mean people by saying odd things like “you just have to be kind! THE question as to the nature of evil is by far the most important problem for philosophical, religious, and moral consideration. Nothing here is “absurd” to the point of falsifying anything I’ve said. The point of all this: nothing shows that God exists, and put something in us, in ALL of us, and it was a sense of kindness. THE PROBLEM OF GOOD FAITH. 1) Can’t really consistently define “evil” in the first place; 2) Has no hope of eventual eschatological justice; 3) Has no objective basis of condemning evil; 4) Has no belief in a heaven of everlasting bliss; 5) Has to believe in an ultimately absolutely hopeless and meaningless universe.”, DA thinks that something here “rules out these non-theistic ethics in one fell swoop”. This particular dialogue was a critique of atheism, in response to the atheist problem of evil critique of Christianity. Photo credit: Nanjing Tribunal investigates remains of Nanjing Massacre victims (1946) [public domain / Wikimedia Commons], Please also opt me in for Exclusive Offers from Patheos’s Partners. Atheists and agnostics regularly resort to the “problem of evil” when raising arguments against the existence of a benevolent and omnipotent God. Even though there is no god, atheists can hope for mean people to be punishing “in the end”, and for kind people to be rewarded “in the end”. The natural universe 2. Hope. Pregnant mothers were cut open and rape victims were sodomized with bamboo sticks and bayonets until they died in agony. . An essay or paper on Mencius: The Problem of Good and Evil. It’s obvious our creator is very clearly evil! Of course, this is why societies construct legal systems, which hold that certain behaviors are wrong, and therefore, punishable by law. Job went through this. That’s why I wasn’t arguing for those things. the electrochemical processes of plants to sense physical damage or pain) is quite sophisticated and stunningly effective. The Problem of Good Author Greg Koukl Published on 05/23/2012. To my knowledge, the way I used the argument (back in 2001) was not to assert that it proves God exists. DA claims that the EPOE (the only POE worth discussing, since the LPOE [logical problem of evil] is quickly a failure) fails, but he doesn’t (yet) show that to be true. That is, nothing about existing morality disproves atheism or proves theism. The problem of good is not defined (as far as I can see), but if the POE [problem of evil] is the argument where evil disproves a perfectly loving being, the POG seems to … Oceans of goodness are a problem for those bent on being negative and seeing only what is evil. I’m simply stating my position on that,m since you keep bringing it up, for some odd reason. torturing babies) without eventually appealing to God? . The Problem of Good. Again, the key here lies in the word eschatological, which is a fancy theological 50-cent word for “last things.” It refers to judgment after death, and specifically the Last Judgment: where the scales will be weighed and divine / cosmic justice will be applied. Atheists can’t show, automatically, that all persons (including the unkind atheists) are “bound” to be kind, other than to say “if you are mean, we will try to throw you in jail!”. God please break this evil. If you can be there it will be a good thing. . The truth of that depends on how he is defining those terms. The only way that evil can claim victory is if death is the end. The problem of good and evil in the world has been a challenging subject for hundreds, even thousands of years. singing stars, and death-fearing hydrogen atoms) and illuminating scientific analogues (e.g. Creation is good and the solution to the damage done by parasitic evil is not abandonment but redemption. It’s central to the problem of good. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for The Problem of Good : When the World Seems Fine Without God (2014, Trade Paperback) at the … I say that you have a far more difficult problem to grapple with.”. Atheists have no godly basis for condemning evil. It doesn’t prove God or disprove atheism. DA then says, the reason that all people are bound (“ought”, are required regardless of desires…) to be kind is “because God provides the over-arching “absolute” and principle of right and wrong which allows for coherent ethics and non-arbitrary determination of good and evil.” As I’ve shown, people aren’t all bound. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Those who believe in a God in Whom right and wrong and love are grounded, do possess such a system (especially if that God in fact exists!). It has been marred, but it can be healed. Problem of good . Thus, for those who prefer pizza, what is wise for them to do (what they “ought to do” prima facie) is eat pizza. What an utterly terrifying “world” that is . And I would say that law in a given country will reflect its religious heritage, because that is what the views of right and wrong, and what should be illegal are ultimately based on: that and natural law. It has no such thing, and cannot, by definition. “And God saw everything that he had made, and behold it was very good.”. The first is false: many atheists can easily define “evil” consistently. It is well  summarized in Dostoevsky’s statement, “If there’s no God and no life beyond the grave, doesn’t that mean that men will be allowed to do whatever they want?” [see more on this quotation from The Brothers Karamazov (1880)]. Of course, one can still hope for eternal life. And how and why would all human beings be bound to it, in a godless ethical system? , unless he meant, “at rock bottom” and was just repeating the point I just made. On a May evening in 1991, after the indie rock band the Manic Street Preachers had played a gig at the Norwich Arts Centre and during an interview with New Musical Expres.(NM.) So, basically, an atheist morality is ultimately arbitrary (as is any known morality). Thursday, September 6, 2012. What is true is that if one continues to ask questions about things we will always get to an arbitrary point (the point in which we don’t have an answer for something). Of course, it is Catholic (and to a large extent, larger Christian) binding moral teaching on just war that provides that rationale. If you really believed this, you couldn’t use rape as your “silver bullet” example to try to condemn God with: in your EPOE arguments. Those are just facts, truths, likelihoods. Read 2 reviews from the world's largest community for readers. Many atheists (at least those in power) did indeed conclude that any evil was possible in a godless universe. Culture or society 3. That rape is unkind?). The Problem of Good book. I was saying, in effect, “you say. It’s one of the issues in the “long run” but not primarily in my mind (if at all) when making the problem of good argument. The Problem Of Good I just finished Andrew Klavan's excellent conversion memoir, The Great Good Thing: A Secular Jew Comes To Faith In Christ . Nothing shows that God exists, or “put” in (ALL of) us a “sense” of “right and wrong” (knowledge? NO! I would have to be shown point-by-point that I supposedly did not succeed in my aim. But that’s not true. “. I deny that your evidential problem of evil works to either disprove God’s existence, or suggest that His nonexistence is probable; and you have misunderstood the nature and purpose of my problem of good (at least in the way I use it). What does this mean? (But it is!) This essay, however, does not repeat those arguments but instead considers a parallel question, the Problem of Good. The dialogue could have been about that, but DA indicates it will be about the nature of morality. Yes, folks like you would do that, no doubt. A smiling face and a warm embrace. There aren’t, at least not intellectually. I deny that Christian morality is arbitrary at all. But that’s not true. Exactly! Pearce's Potshots #11: 28 Defenses of Jesus' Nativity, Seidensticker Folly #69: "Difficulties" Aren't Contradictions, FASH 101: I Can't Believe It's Not Fascism. Thanks! That’s a statement of sociology (my major), not philosophy. Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! We can’t turn around, look out a window or walk down the street without running into goodness. On what basis can we absolutely condemn anything as evil (e.g. Here’s probably the major thing overlooked in this discussion: DA wonders how the kind atheist would respond to the unkind atheist. If it means “actual values”, then it’s false. You have to casually assume moral absolutes to discuss morality at all (i.e., if you condemn any particular behaviors). DA then falsely says “Atheists have this sense (that rape is unkind, the desire to help others? Here the theist DA imagines that all atheists have to believe in what’s often called an “Objective Moral Law/Duty”, which usually is spelled out as saying “All people, regardless, MUST be kind”. He is interacting with my paper, The “Problem of Good”: Great Dialogue With an Atheist (the Flip Side of the Problem of Evil Argument Against Christianity) + the Nature of Meaningfulness in Atheism. I don’t think anything absolutely disproves it (if e want to get technical). Newborns don’t even know what rape is. Th It can be shown that all societies agree on basic moral principles. All societies, for example, have prohibitions of murder, as inherently wrong. Evil is merely a corruption of what is good, a tear in the fabric of goodness, a parasite upon the host of goodness that cannot live by itself. I was saying, in effect, “you say we have a problem? Yes, I meant “at rock bottom” or “ultimately.” The Christian “rock bottom” is God. Just as people have taken the presence of evil as a reason to question the validity of Christianity, so also people have seen the presence of good as inconsistent with Christianity’s message. Nothing shows that an atheist can’t criticize evil, or cheating, etc., if that criticism is to point out that such things are indeed not maximally kind. the Problem of Good and Evil Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D. One of the greatest problems of the Harry Potter craze, as I see it, is the tremendous confusion between good and evil it is bound to generate among the youth, especially in the already-relativized ambience of our days. Indeed, as Pascal said, “The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing.”. that’s again just a fact about the world. Atheism obviously has no such scenario, since it denies the existence of God, the afterlife, human immortality, heaven, and hell, so my statement is absolutely true, as to atheism. If one continues this story, there’s nothing that will show that claim to be true. Well, that’s what I unpack in the very lengthy dialogue. Family. Nothing shows that if atheists don’t or can’t define “evil” consistently then God exists. DA thinks that something here “rules out these non-theistic ethics in one fell swoop” [that was my opponent’s words], but I see no evidence of this. DA is honest when he says, “Christians believe that God put this inherent sense in all human beings, so that they instinctively have a moral compass, and therefore largely agree on right and wrong in the main”. J. Craig Bradley is an atheist, with a Master’s degree in philosophy. Friends. What is true is that if one continues to ask questions about things we will always get to an arbitrary point (the point in which we don’t have an answer for something). Art. DA is right about one thing: “morality” is relative in one sense: people exist, and they often desire/prefer/like/want different things. Whereas of course, the theist hasn’t shown that rapists (mean people) probably are for the greater good (and thus allowed by a perfect in all ways being). The atheist rock bottom is like peeling an onion: it’s nothing. But that’s an altogether separate argument (or separate large set of arguments). (what he called the Tao). If you then say, but morality (i.e., what we value) is “arbitrary” (we could value lots of different things, and we do!) Are there problems (“shortcomings”) with atheism? When you think of it, the Problem of Evil is the dual of the Problem of Good. I agree; it’s perfectly logical, according to your [false] premises. There is no other book like it.” —Philip Graham Ryken, President, Wheaton College, Wheaton, Illinois . . Again, since you have misunderstood my argument, this is a non sequitur. So far the author hasn’t done anything to show that this atheistic “relativistic” morality leads to any absurdity that falsifies it. The issue here is whether atheism is false. Goodness In man is not a mere passive quality, but the deliberate preference of right to wrong, the firm and persistent resistance of all moral evil, and the choosing and following of all moral good. J.L. Falling leaves and laughing children. And from where we stand, this is a huge problem. The capacity to know these things are good. Pastor Clark has dedicated his life to explaining biblical truth in clear, practical ways and to solving spiritual problems in the life of the church. If there is no ultimate morality and justice, of course this is true. The very possibility of living a life that in the end you can call good. The song of birds and the smell of coffee. It’s obvious what it means. Friday night we will have a special Thanksgiving Praise & Communion Service. Justice. It does not. The Problem of Good: When the World Seems Fine Without God Of course, that is no disproof that they exist. This particular dialogue was a critique of atheism, in response to the atheist problem of evil critique of Christianity. I was simply saying, “this is the coherent Christian alternative.”. Faith. The problem of good is that it unravels the argument raised by the problem of evil. All people, regardless, do not have to be kind. DA thinks there are worrisome moral implications for atheism. If creation is abandoned because of the damage wrought by evil, then in a very real sense evil has triumphed. You’ve probably never thought about good things as, in some ways, a problem to be pondered. The second is also false. I too will attempt to have a respectful dialogue with DA, and hope he returns the favor. I think the following statement of mine, near the beginning, serves as a definition of the [atheist] problem of good: Simply put (but I will defend this at the greatest length once we discuss particular moral questions), atheist justifications for morality (i.e., logically carried through) will always be either completely arbitrary, relativistic to the point of absurdity, or derived from axiomatic assumptions requiring no less faith than Christian ethics require. DA thinks there are worrisome moral implications for atheism. I show how atheist use is inconsistent throughout my dialogue. They are not even rational arguments. I will experience good. I’m saying, “these are the consequences on the ground of atheism, taken consistently to its logical extreme.” That argument can be made wholly apart from whether God exists or not. Yep. The theist must rise to the challenge, to be sure. One thing at a time. © 2014 Word of Life Church. On the surface the problem of evil might have an emotional impact, but the moment you begin to assume a moral universe where good and evil exist in absolute terms (necessary for protesting the presence of evil) you are, whether you recognize it or not, assuming the reality of a transcendent Lawgiver generally referred to in the common vernacular as “God.” And there you have it. I’m not talking about the end of the universe. Some of our knowledge is already like that! But if creation is healed and evil exiled then God is the victor. If we can ever get beyond these non sequiturs, maybe we’ll get somewhere. Everyone Ought to be kind!” But there’s no evidence for this. Technically, I likely (without looking at it again) wasn’t trying to prove that God was. You apply that and assume it to be true. I didn’t say it did prove God (let’s not get ahead of ourselves). 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